# NYU Film Grad Says: Don't Go to Film School



## sethjared

To any and all students freaking out about film school, I would just like to say hello from the other side of college. The place you will be in about 4 years, after graduation. Right now, you are probably focused on:

1. grades
2. SAT scores
3. college admissions

You are under a lot of social pressure to simply go right to college. I invite you to take a deep breath and first off, congratulate yourself for surviving high school. 

Second, take a look at the programs you are applying to and:

1. how much they cost
2. what you will get out of them
3. how valuable the degree will be when you graduate

Because once you get out of school you are going to have to deal with a whole new set of concerns like:

1. rent
2. utility bills
3. car payments
4. finding and keeping a job
5. making your films

Here are somethings to consider if you are even thinking about film school, ESPECIALLY a private one:

1. Film is a blue collar industry. Many of the most successful writers, directors, and producers have little to no secondary education. 

2. No degree is required to make films. 

3 The big schools like USC and NYU cost between $40,000 and $50,000 a year to attend. With that money, you could either set up a retirement fund or make several films of your own. And that's just ONE YEAR. 

4. When you actually come to LA and look for work, or if you start trying to finance your own movies, you will be saddened to discover that the serious people in the business do not care about where you went to film school. They care about your WORK EXPERIENCE and your REEL. 

5. Most of you are already shooting movies and editing them on the same kind of digital equipment availible at film school. You would be better off continuing to experiment and make movies than blowing all that money on tuition. 

6. Being in film school means you will have to answer to a professor as to what and if you can even make a movie. 

7. Your degree means nothing to people working in the business. 

I graduated from NYU Film with Honors in 1999. I won several awards and entered the program with a ton of energy and enthusiasm. What i learned in their program actually took me backwards from work i had done in high school. 

YOU DON'T EVEN TOUCH A VIDEO OR FILM CAMERA YOUR FRESHMAN YEAR. 

If you are curious about the details, i wrote a book that includes each class, dollar by dollar, and my experiences after graduation, and post graduate support (which is not very helpful).

Ultimately, even attending a state school is very costly and the debt you build up is very hard to pay off. Examine your tuition and see if it costs less to just make movies on your own, meet people through myspace and by being friendly. 

Schools sell "networking" as a reason to go but these days, it is so easy to meet people it should not cost you $40,000 a year. Plus, most film school profs are people who could not support themseves in the business. At least that's how it is at NYU.

The book is availible at www.filmfooled.com. Seriously, you will not believe how bad the program is. It's hilariously mind boggling. I'll explain, in detail. The school somehow has this amazing reputation because Martin Scorcese graduated (from the GRAD program) 30 years ago, but after graduation all of us are kind of shaking our heads like "what happened?" We bought into the reputation and the actual cirriculum is a very expensive joke. 

Please think twice before investing thousands of dollars into one of these programs. Think about law school or medical school. To be a doctor you really need to sit in class and learn about chemistry. To be a lawyer you have to learn the law. This is complicted stuff, school is necessary. 

Do you need to listen to some old person lecture for hours in order to know where to put a light? 

Think about it. And to parents: you may have saved a ton for your kid's education. Consider investing that money elseware. You may never have that much cash saved up again: don't rush off to school without talking to people who have graduated and can tell you if it was worth it. Would you invest in a stock without background? Would you buy a car without reading some reviews? 

You don't need grades or anyone's permission to be a filmmaker. Take a deep breath, enjoy graduation, and GO MAKE SOME MOVIES!


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## duders

Although the post is just an obnoxious plug for a book, which seems even more unnecessary than what the author rants against, it is essentially correct.

An undergraduate degree in film is absolutely a waste of time.


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## jdunn555

You probably wouldn't want to accept it sethjared, but Tisch has changed a lot in the eight years since you've been there.


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## sethjared

Hey jdunn and duders,

First off, congrats on your trailer jdunn. Clearly a personal project you feel strongly about, and I'd be interested in seeing it. I don't understand how it demonstrates how Tisch has changed though. While your trailer looks intersting, I can't really tell from it what the movie is about, which is something they should be teaching you about in school. 

And unfortunately, I see you are looking for donations. Which brings me back to my point: you are spending $25,000 a semester to say you go to this school. Why isn't that money being used to fund the movie? 

When you graduate and want to make features, you will find that everybody is looking for money. You need to know how to market your product in a way that instills investors with confidence, with a reel that dazzles and is understandable and accessible. Movies about social issues tend to be attractive for donations and grants, but are hard to finance unless a star is involved. 

I admit, I struggled to get my first feature off the ground. I raised $30,000 out of a $190,000 budget. I could have shot it for $60,000 but stopped fundraising because, quite simply, i was tired of being a salesman. And then I thought back to NYU, and realized I had spent $100,000 that I could have used for my feature. 

As for the curriculum, you are still required to take FRame and Sequence, Sound Image, Sight and Sound Film and Video before even making a color synch film or video. That's according to my friends who just graduated and the school's own handbook. The fact that the school still requires you to pay $4,592 (4 credits at $1,148 a credit) for a photography class is ridiculous. 

You could have just made your movie with all of your passion and creativity without spending $25,000 a semester at Tisch. 

And to duder, yes, I am promoting my book. You got me. I couldn't fit everything that is so hilariously bizarre about Tisch's program into a blog, i needed 150 pages and charts and graphs and what not to do so. And I believe the book is valuable to anyone in high school who has heard that NYU and USC are really a good idea, and wants to know what the curriculum will entail from start to finish. 

By the way, if you want to criticize some of my work, check out the trailer i cut for the feature i am still working on financing. The trailer could be tighter and I need a narrator, I know. But hey, let me have it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkJbESS1eNo

Seth


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## jdunn555

What you saw is a "teaser," not a "trailer." There is really no point to make a "trailer" for a 12min film. 

As you put it:
"And unfortunately, I see you are looking for donations. Which brings me back to my point: you are spending $25,000 a semester to say you go to this school. Why isn't that money being used to fund the movie?"

My answer: Although I did have an extensive training in high school, I still learned a great deal from my experience in the sight and sound production class, and Tisch's many producing courses. If I did not have this experience, then yes, I could have still made a movie on my own, but it would not have been anything close to what it is now in terms of production value or scale. The film was completed in June, and has been accepted to festivals around the world and is winning awards. 

Here's a question, how did you expect to be a filmmaker in the real world without a passion for being able to sell yourself and your work to potential investors? Being able to pitch and  
sell is a major "requirement" of filmmaking. 

I urge you to be careful with how you market yourself because you come off as incredibly bitter towards a system which you apparently were not resourceful enough to maneuver. 

As a final question, were you expecting the school to find you a directing gig right after graduation? What assumptions did you have when you first started at Tisch? 

What you do succeed in doing is to raise another important question, which is kids should  not assume that just because they get into a "name" film school - their professional directing  careers are set and they can relax for some smooth sailing. It takes long hard hours of work, little sleep, and a lot of crafty resourcefulness to make it in this industry.


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## sethjared

What did the school actually provide to make your film better? It seems to me that you are talented, driven, passionate. What exactly did the school contibute to that? The battered 16mm Arri-s cameras from Sight and Sound? The $3,000 Avid Xpress editing systems on the 10th floor? 

I took 16mm filmmaking at a community darkroom for $300. I learned as much there as I did in sight and sound from the prof saying "good work."

Did the school get your locations, or help you find your actors, or pay for your film stock? 

No, you did all that. You imagined the project, and inspired your actors to participate, and found locations and actually went about the process of making the movie. 

What did your professor's provide? A few ideas, a nod? 

Did you have to rent additional equipment or buy additional film stock to make your short? 

My point is simply: you didn't really need the school. Young people as determined as yourself are going to be successful with or without expensive programs. 

Several friends of mine from school made very successful shorts. One was called "Empty", about a German and a Jew who find each other hiding in a barn and find an understanding. The other was about a group of German and American soldiers who have a game of soccer during WWI. Both films were amazing. The later won the Wasserman Award. Both led to meetings with people in LA. 

But neither film can be marketed as a viable commodity. And both filmmakers came to film school in order to ultimately make features. Right now, the paradigm is this: work hard in film school, make a short that wins festivals, hope to get an agent, to eventually make a feature. 

All I'm saying is, you could bypass all that and use even just a portion of the money you spend on tuition to go make a feature. You could use the other portion to make shorts, so you learn and practice. 

If I sound bitter, it's because I was sold on a program that costs a staggering amount of money and provided so little of practical value. Everyone I have met from Tisch Film post graduation has a similar take on the school: it was okay, but actually working in the biz after school is totally different, and the program was really overrated. I'm the only one who was pissed enough to write a book about it. 

I wasn't able to make an upper level film because I did not have the money to do so after tuition. And it seems stupid to me that a school that is so expensive does not provide it's students with ample allotments to make projects without having to invest their own money. Plus the fact that Narrative and Advanced classes only allow 10 students per class to direct is ridiculous. 

Navigating the financial aspect of the film industry is hellish for everyone. I have a friend that works as an analyst for the company that financed Evan Almighty and American Gangster. He tells me about the stress of financing even the movies that have big stars. Movies are risky investments even when stars are involved. Financing movies with no names is so difficult, that's why i think it's smarter to have your own money to put in. 

The only person from Tisch who has had an measurable success as a director, who graduated from 1996-2006 that I have heard of is Ryan Fleck who made "Half Nelson". I know grads who have directed for Roger Corman, write for Entourage, edit for Dancing for the Stars, production manage reality shows. They all got these jobs with little to no help from the school due to their own hard work. 

But I don't know anybody (I'm sure there are a few low budget indies that I haven't heard of) who has done what most people came to film school for: direct a feature. It could have been done with our tuition money. That's all I'm saying.   

I'm not done, dude. Filmmaking is a long haul. I raised $30,000 in three months from strangers for a project with no stars. I got a professional crew to work for deferred pay and even had the Gersh agency submitting headshots of known actors to the project just because of my own passion. That is an accomplishment. I just stopped because truthfully, I was tired of being a producer and writer and director. It's exhausting.  

I taught myself and learned a ton just by doing long after graduation, and when I reflected on the bull**** photography classes and $4,592 screenwriting classes and the flakey self involved professors, I thought "jesus, what a rip off". 

I'm saying dude: you're better than this school. Get out while you can, save your tuition and use it for your future.


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## Josh

Hey man, I'm real sorry to hear that NYU didn't live up to your expectations. That's really too bad and I honestly do feel for you. However, one thing you seem to not understand is that NYU does not represent all film schools. 

You can recommend against going to NYU. That's fine. But don't say that all film schools are a waste of time, because you don't know that.


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## sethjared

In general, when you start working in the business, the consensus among working producers, directors, writers is that film school is not very important. It's a product driven industry, and if you can make funny or well told movies nobody cares where you went to school. 

As for the value of the various other programs, it comes down to how much tuition is versus the cost of simply making a film yourself. There are some wonderful community colleges here in Southern California that provide the same kind of creative, collaborative environment you would hope to find in any school, and access to equipment, but tuition is more like $60 a credit than the $300 a credit at a state school to the $1,148 at privates like Tisch. 

In general, however, film is something done by doing. The people I know who have been the most successful did not waste their time in classes of any kind, they simply started working and writing and hustling. 

The only prominent program I'm aware of where the school actually pays for student's films is Florida State University. Other than that, the financial burden falls upon the shoulders of people under the age of 21 in addition to tuition. It just seems fiscally irresponsible to me.


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## Cody Brown

Seth,

There is a reason 'learn by doing' is a slogan  championed by local community colleges and not  by our nations elite universities. When it comes to film, compelling ideas and vision are far more important than experience with production. You don't train the next generation of skyscraper architects by locking them into a construction site and telling them to 'build'. 

NYU's curriculum is all about cultivating an understanding of cinema by breaking it down to its roots. You start with a photography class to learn how to find an evocative image. You move on to sound to pursue the intimacies that an audio recording can capture. Soon enough you are putting them together and in some cases the results can be outstanding. The program is designed to elevate the nuances of cinema. 

Many filmmakers point to money as what gets in the way of their filmmaking ability. They say, 'If I had $50,000 I would be able to make the movie I truly want to make.' The sobering reality is money is hardly ever an issue for those with raw talent.

Any outsider with an interesting reel can post an advertisement on nycasting and drum hundreds of responses from outstanding actors and actresses willing to work for DVD credit. A DVX100, costs less than $1,800 to buy, pulling a crew together means befriending a few people with similar interests, locking down a location in Manhattan often means little more than writing a nice email to a restaurant owner. Nothing brings people together with more force than a script or idea that is actually compelling. 

I am a little baffled as to why you would spend the time to write a 163 page rant instead of working on your own craft. I say 'rant' because you don't seem to offer any solution or template for success in the way Rebel Without a Crew does. It just seems like a lot of bitterness from someone who hasn't found success yet.  

I wish you the best though.


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## Cody Brown

Also, if anyone wants to get a taste of what other NYU alumni are working on.

Download the PDF "Tisch Affilliated Films and Individuals" at this years Sundance film festival.

http://www.tisch.nyu.edu/object/Alumni_TischSundance.html

It's 6 pages long.


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## sethjared

The school is postured and marketed in such a way that parents are willing to work with their kids to take out substantial loans, and invest in the program, because it eminates the image of being a credible, practical, and advantageous to their film careers. 

The book was the result of many conversations with family friends, adults, who had children intersting in filmmaking and were considering investing in a school like NYU. I would explain to them my impressions of the program in general, but they would typically respond "yes, but at least [my kid] will have a Bachelor's Degree to fall back on" as if the degree was going to provide some kind of stability or advantage in the work force. 

I would try to explain that the degree means nothing in the film biz, but the cultural indoctrination to believe that a college degree is absolutely necessary runs incredibly deep even when the facts state otherwise. 

I felt that a detailed treaties on the school's curriculum from day one to graduation, and then an account of the school's post grad services, would be a better way to lay out a more realistic assessment of the investment for any parents or students who wanted to know what they were getting into. 

I felt that to substantiate an argument that counters the indoctrinated belief that college is always valuable, i would need to go indepth. and that took many pages. I wrote it for the doubting minds and worried parents so they could see exactly where their dollars would be going. 

The conceit of spending freshman year on a photography class (and radio) is impractical and theoretical. I am well aware of the school's mission to "cultivate an understanding of cinema". But having actually gone through those classes, the reality is that it's nothing but a lot of theoretical nonsense, and it certainly isn't worth the price. But it is great posturing to say it's going to "cultivate an understanding of cinema". It's like saying that driving a Lexus is "the ultimate driving experience". 

And as for the comment about Raw Talent; when I was at Tisch, I was surrounded by students overflowing with talent. Some of my classmate's films blew me away. I am constantly looking for features or other projects made by many of them, but the truth is that almost 10 years after graduation, the only person I have heard of making anything substantial is Ryan Fleck and "Half Nelson". The school did not teach them how to mold that talent into a successful career. And classmates and friends of mine who have won awards in festivals and are trying to get features made and are extremely talented are all running into the same challenge: FINANCING. It's naive to say that raw talent is all that is needed to be successful in this biz, it illustrates that you clearly have not attempted to make a feauture project. 

I wrote the book after spending 2 years producing a feature i wrote, rallying an amazing cast and crew, securing a AAA 14,000 baseball stadium, getting local media coverage and 100 plus extras. Everyone was so excited to be part of a movie, and I managed to raise $30,000 for a $190,000 budget in about 3 months, but then burned out fromt he producing, writing, and directing. Everything was ready to go with the project, it just came down to the money. I could have used my tuition for the movie, that's all. And I'm still working on it. Don't worry, I'm not discouraged, I just wanted to send a little info to young people before they blew $200,000 on this program. 


After all, the marketing is pretty good. Tisch throws the names of anyone recognizeable onto that Sundance list. It includes Felicity Huffman and Morgan Spurlock and other people from the acting program. It also includes parents of famous people. This six page list includes crew positions, casting associates, actors... it even lists George Romero because he's the parent of someone going to Tisch!

Check out the Sundance list and look for recent grads of the UGFTV program who wrote or directed any of those projects. I found ZERO names that fit that criteria. The only BFA, undergrad students that wrote or directed any of the films mentioned were: Morgan Spurlock and Ryan Fleck, two of the flagship success stories for the school (and Nannette Burstein, BFA '94). Everyone else is credited for being in the cast, crew (like grip), or they were Masters grads. 


I'm saying, because someone famous attended the school doesn't mean it's worth it. And it does NOT teach you how to hone your vision as a filmmaker. It's subjecting yourself to being taught by pretensious academics who aren't working in the business and are usually too distracted trying to get their own projects working to provide you with any kind of wisdom. 

Seriously, look at that list of Tisch related projects. Wouldn't you think there would be at least something done by a recent Undergrad student if the school were really molding young filmmakers? No, the successful ones are the ones who keep at it and learn on their own. 

I am specifically targeting the undergrad film and tv program, which i attended, on the basis that it does not help young people become succesful filmmakers. 

The funny thing is, Tisch Film grads that have read the book agree with it. But people who haven't attended or are still in the middle of the madness think I'm being too harsh.


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## Andrew Reisfeld

It's too bad school costs that much, I think it's best that one concentrates on getting as much experience as possible while in higschool so that you have a leg on competition. One of the major benefits of going to a film school is meeting people with similar interests and abilities. I'm still in highschool however I attended the Usc summer film course which counts the same as a college class. It was grueling tiresome and hardwork. Was it worth it? I think so because now I have a foot in the door and mabye thats not so bad. I'm not saying you should go to film school or that you shouldn't but keep in mind that where ever you go it's just important to learn and have fun


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## duders

Taking the $100k for tuition and using it to make a feature is an argument that holds no water.

I've worked on professional sets where that is exactly what happens. It's common knowledge to not let people know that you are in (or attended) grad school on set, and it makes sense. Thus, I keep my mouth shut when I see directors not being able to direct, or producers with no clue.

I don't know much about the undergrad curriculum, but I feel that the grad curriculum is incredibly educational and allows you to learn about writing and directing in creative ways.

Because of this, most of us wouldn't make the silly mistakes that a trust-fund person would make. 

In this business, you can't afford to make anything crappy especially on a professional level. I feel that film school allows you to make the dumbass mistakes in a setting where a lot of people won't see them, and it won't ruin your career.


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## funkbomb

Comes as very little surprise to me. The automatic assumption is to go to college under a major that suits your passion in life. Go do a program that will help you pursue your passion, financially and otherwise. Do a program that demands a lot from you so you are ready for an industry that will be equally demanding. 

Film school, to me, is a self-indulgent waste of time, but that's just the senile old man living in my head. Seeing NYU alumni being successful is not a surprise to me. What would be, is an NYU alumni saying "I would not be where I am today without my Tisch education."


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## politicsofecstacy

Film school, or any kind of school for that matter, is not for everyone.


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## Jayimess

I don't think film school is a mistake.

But, like pol said, it's not for everyone, and like anything in this world, it is what you make of it.

For instance, SethJared, you made an anti-film school book out of it.

I'm pretty sure that you can say "I wouldn't be the author of this book if it wasn't for Tisch....."



Happy New Year, everyone.


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## Joe8

I think aspiring Film students should go to Film school somewhere. I'm a senior in High School and I was accepted early decision To Tisch for film. Although it's a great accomplishment, I'm not going to NYU. I'd have to get 39,200 dollars a year in loans. That's a total of 156,800 dollars just to go there. And they're not very helpful at NYU if you need aid. I got the highest merit-based scholarship they offer at Tisch: 9,000. We asked if they could help us out any more, and they said: "That's our final offer, we can't do anymore. It's a family decision." Basically they said: "Congratulations! Oh, you can't get the money? Too bad. Have a nice life." 

If you have the money to go to Tisch, and you really want to go: try it out. If you don't have that type of money, look to go somewhere cheaper. Think about it: who wants to leave College with a degree in film and 150,000-200,000 dollars in debt? Your first few years as a filmmaker are tough. Even if you get a job, it won't pay much. It's better to get the education, so you at least have the degree, with the least amount of debt as possible. You're gonna need some money to make it those first few years. Even Tisch graduates like M. Night Shyamalan, Martin Scorsese, and Chris Columbus didn't start making a lot of money with their big pictures until they were in their early thirties.

Now I'm looking to go to a cheaper film school. I've already sent out applications to the University of Southern California (yes, I know: just as expensive as NYU), Drexel University, and Florida State University. I plan on applying to Emerson and Temple. I'm hoping to get some scholarships to maybe knock down Emerson to half the tuition and Drexel, almost completely cover the tuition. It would be nice if USC gave me that scholarship covering the entire tuition, but my SATs aren't quite that high: 740 Critical Reading, 680 Math, 660 Writing. And a 4.1133 (weighted GPA), 3.8 (unweighted). It says you need like top 1-2 percent nationwide in SATs and I'm 97% Critical Reading, 91% Math, 92 % Writing. If anybody has advice on how to pay for Film school, or what their film school is like, or how much a degree from a certain college will help you get a job after you're done with college, please let me know. Thanks


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## sethjared

I'm excited to see people having an open discussion about this issue. Clearly, cost and value are the biggest questions. Can an education that costs $156,000 truly deliver? 

I've realized something, though. Whatever reasons I went to school, it was my choice to do it and spend all that money. Part of my anger was knowing my parents been saving since I was a baby to pay for college, and that money could have been used to either make the feature I am producing now, or it could be earning interest in a mutual fund for my retirement. 

However, since I did make the investment I am taking responsibility for it. The school did me no wrong. I could have dropped out at any time, but I didn't. I could have investigated the curriculum ahead of time, but I went in with blind trust. It's my responsibility to be successful in this business, not the school's. So I've decided to take advantage of the resources that are availible for Tisch grads out here in LA, such as they are, and make the education work for me. Either way, I know that if I am successful or not, I'm cause in the matter, not the school. Especially so I don't come off as a whining bitter jerk, which in this post... I definitely did. So, apologies for that. 

I'm leaving the book online for anyone who wishes to get what the actual curriculum is. However, I won't be promoting it. I'm giving up focusing on the past. I'm focusing on producing my projects, not *****ing about things that happened years ago!


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## Cody Brown

Awesome SethJared.

Best of Luck in LA. 

-cody


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## tswells

Film school is for people who can't form opinions on their own.  I don't need a burnt out filmmaker telling me what movie he considers good, and why.

I'll say this:

If you want to make films that are no better, no worse, than every other film student in the country, go to film school.  You'll be one of the thousands brainwashed into following outdated theory.  By graduation, you might have a decent short film.  

If you spent those four years honing your art outside of school you'd have a lot more than one decent short film.


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## Eddie

I recently transfered to SVA this past Fall and, based on how things have been so far, the school represents everything a film school can and should be.  Frankly, everything we do is hands-on and involved.  Personally, I won't listen to a professor's criticisms unless it's insight since I refuse to have my style dictated.  IE.  "You could have done" rather than "you should of done".  Most of my professors are open minded and encourage individuality and personal film styles rather than the "correct" way something should be done or "how it should be done".  These reasons alone are what convinced me to avoid applying to a school like NYU.  I'm sure SVA is one of many film schools that rely on "learning by doing" rather than being lectured on "the right way" to make films.  Then again, I started making films LONG before college or even high school so I'm at a point in my life where I have a grounded understanding of film and don't need any teachers telling me how to make a film. 

I'm still making the same types of films I made before going into film school (I spend more time on my personal projects than I do on film school projects).   Film school's best purpose is a networking forum or a place of "free" resources to use but, honestly, film school won't teach a film maker anything they can't learn on their own.  I think the ONLY major thing I learned from SVA was how to work with shooting on film (which I could have learned on my own).

Meh, that's just my two cents on this whole film school necessity thing.  In short, film school isn't necessary, but hey, it's got it's perks....depending on which school you go to!


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## Bandar Albuliwi

Again, you're talking about undergrad.  Graduate film school is a completely different ball game.


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## karen

Speaking as a parent who has been saving since birth for my son's film school education, university is just one path a person can take and it's not just about whether my son will have a career when he graduates.  It is a lot of money, but elitist paths are expensive.  I don't know that investing $156,000 or whatever in a film will give him the same experience as four years in academia.  It's apples and oranges, I think.


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## Cinematical

These people railing against filmschools are just trying to justify their choice/inability to go to one. Yes, filmschool isn't for everyone, but the fact is that nearly every single successful and/or talented director went to film school.

'Nuff said.


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## dahinducow

> Originally posted by Cinematical:
> the fact is that nearly every single successful and/or talented director went to film school.



Hmmm... I am pro-film school and all, but I don't know about that.

Wachowski, Cameron, Jackson, Raimi... those names ring a bell?

I've actually recently been talking to a lot of MFA graduates who ALL tell me that they wish they didn't go.  

I'm starting to lean more towards the boat of get an MFA, but get it in a skill that will give you an X-Factor.

For example, if you are a writer/director go get a Producing MFA or an Animation MFA instead.

Get skills that set you apart.  Still make your shorts, and your first low-budget feature -- which everyone has to do anyway.

So, I'm pro-film school, but I think you should think outside of the box.


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## karen

Whoa!  "A lot of MFA graduates" wish they hadn't gone?  That IS harsh!  I wonder what they expected?  It was the same story when I graduated (albeit from a different faculty) 20+ years ago..."if you don't do this, then this won't happen".  It always comes down to doing the best you can, doesn't it?  What follows, follows. Graduate school: apples, oranges, pears?


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## Cinematical

Yes, there are some who didn't go. But for every one you name that didn't I can list a dozen who did. Most directors recieve some form of instruction related to filmmaking - though, not all from the "big" schools.


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## dahinducow

I think the problem is this:

People go to grad school and assume that that's how you make it.  I have an MFA.  THE END

Then they get out, can't find a job, have 150,000 or more in debt...

I just think people need to be realistic, and get the most out of the time spent.

Write several screenplays.  In fact, screenplays are more important than the short films you'll make while you there.  Why?  Because look back at the history of the big schools.  Maybe ONCE a decade a short is the reason someone finds success.  The first feature is what brings success.

Also, an MFA is almost frowned upon in the film business.  Several books say this (Film School Confidential, for example), as well as several of my friends actually in the business...

I personally WILL get an MFA eventually, but I know that I'll still have to make my first feature when I get out.  No one is handing me the keys to the kingdom.


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## karen

I totally agree with you;  I think this is the best attitude to have, keeping things in perspective.


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## PeterYao

the problem of not going to film grad school is finding right people to work with...it sounds like couple people here don't have a real working experience...

im not trying to talk people down or anything...but there are more pimps born every second than all the films ever made combined

i think about 50%-70% of the people that goes to grad school understand this...it's the overwork environment that provides a chance to create a bond between students...if you have that bond upon graduation...then you don't need a Pimping Hoe Degree taught by the film industry to survive on your own

50% of the people graduated from art school switched their career to something totally unrelated...that's a real statistic...some people say it's pointless to go to art school, some people say they're missing the point


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## Jayimess

*yawn*


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## dahinducow

I don't think this issue's worthy of a yawn...  and what does that seriously offer to this discussion?

I made a list of all my favorite directors.
Out of 32, 3 went to film school.

So, it's something worth talking about.  The most important thing is to just go make films, and go write screenplays, whether you're in film school or not.


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## Cinematical

Agreed that there is absolutely an incorrect perception about film school in general. And there's definately differences between undergrad and grad. But the benifits are there: do you want to learn in a more structured environment, where you are guarenteed to make benificial connections? Or do you prefer more literal freedom and the idea of developing your talent more independently? It's all preference.

For certain things, though, going to school is amazingly superior - in just 2 semesters of screenwriting classes, I've learned more than I think I could have writing my own scripts for 5 years. It's simply the benifit of working under/with professors who have a lot of experience (I mean, you simply can't replicate learning screenwriting from the writer of Raqing Bull).


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## Jayimess

This subject is in constant debate on this site and points beyond, and nobody's ever said anything new about it since 1927...I've been asked "why go to film school?" when I could go use that money and "just make a film."  We all have.

And plenty of directors "make it" either way.  Stats of who you like and their educational history...who cares?  If anything, DHC, that should stop you from applying...but it hasn't. 

No one will ever win this verbal joust, yet each side is convinced they're right.

So yeah, the conversation bores me, and that was my apparently quite offensive to you way of saying, 

"This is the song that doesn't end,it just goes round and round my friend..."

And good for you for applying again, btw.


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## PeterYao

heh it's like how my philosophy instructor used to say to our class..."it's ok, it's just a mental masturbation"

i think the points on both sides are somewhat irrelevant...however i do like the money aspect that Film School Confidential points out...personally i think the book hit the jackpot...capitalism gave birth to a world full of pimps

i remember taking the Kaplan GRE class for my application to USC...one day before the generic class started, a fine art student got into a discussion with the teacher about the current trend of the art industry, when they got to the problem of the industry, i jumped in and said "the problem in the industry is money." 

both of them immediately said no, and defended their patriotism towards the system at the same time, "it's the direction"

i mean there's so much things i coulda said in response to that...but i just smiled...after all, the idea of money altering human beings' way of thinking is just absurd right?


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## karen

That's precisely why I think the whole feeling sorry for yourself because you spent years in school instead of splurging the tuition on making a film is counter-productive.  I always tend to use experience as the determining factor in how to spend my bucks; personally, I think you get a helluva lot more experience grinding it out with your peers and taking the time to mature in the world.  Cronenburg is a example of a filmmaker who took an entirely irrelevant undergrad education for his purposes...A little knowledge keeps you off the streets and away from those nasty pimps.


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## Icarus Ascending

Against my better judgement, I will make one ickle observation on this weighty matter before vanishing into the aether:

Yeah, plenty of folks "make it" in "the industry" without attending film school. It does not, then, follow that aspiring filmmakers should skip school and "just make a film."

The vast majority of non-film school success stories involve folks related to industry people or successful artisans in related fields (novelists, playwrights, comic book writers, video game programmers, visual artists, etc.). Some successes come from the world of advertising. Some are just unfathomably lucky people. At least one guy I heard about got his break as part of a legal settlement.

As for random, unconnected people who "just make a film" for the price of film school or less? Try asking the Sundance festival staff about their (the filmmakers') chances of success.

Expressed as a percentage, the track record for even high-profile film schools is, admittedly, terrible. But I'm quite certain that the track record for "just making a film" is worse.

I guess it's just a tough business.

--Icarus


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## FLFilmFan

i just hopped onto this thread and i read through the entire thing and i love this debate.

i think icarus is dead on while referencing sundance.  the sundance filmmakers every year are seen as some of the best of the best in independent film (minus those "buy in" filmmakers, but thats another debate).  i look at those sundance filmmakers as the brightest of the bunch, but tell me, how many of them actually ever make anything of their career?

they have made huge accomplishments by getting to sundance, but how many of them have a huge 3 picture deal?  not sure, but not many.  its all what you make of your opportunity while you are at sundance and what you do to sell yourself.

the same goes for film school, no teacher is going to tell you how or do it for you.  you all have talents for the industry and it will never make or break you to be in film school.  the resources are there and it is the extent that you take advantage of them.  those flagship stories of nyu have made it for a reason and they bought into the ideology of film school and found a way to make themselves somebody.

there is no formula to making it in the industry, but there are common paths in order to do so.  i mean look at diablo cody.  who would have thought that a stripper/blogger would win an academy award with her first screenplay about  a contemporary pregnant teenager with the diction of a 70's hippie?

name your favorite filmmakers.  but dont expect to follow their footsteps and make it big, it all is a chance game.

best,


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## MrCashyCash

Read "Breaking In" by Nich Jarecki.

Then check out what these guys are doing now.


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## chansen8668

Seth,

I appreciate and respect your advice to not waist the time on education when it is not entirely necessary. Use tuition cost wisely makes great sense.

My question for you and other seasoned grads is, is it worth a full ride scholarship to any accredited school?

I am a disabled veteran. I was a photojournalist in the military where I honed my passion for film. I have been attending my local community college for the last couple years and now I am due to transfer Aug 2009. On Aug 2009, Veterans Affairs will reformat the GI Bill to cover 100% tuition cost for all service members on or after 9/11. On top of that, service members will receive additional funds for cost of living (rates vary based on where you attend school), books, and moving expenses. Basically it will not cost me a penny.

After reading your post and others responses I am a little nervous. I am a father and a husband, I can't afford to waist an education. As I am interested in making a career of what I love to do, I must also take into consideration the welfare of my family.

There is nothing more I want out of this life than to make a career out of my passion, but as the old saying goes, "gotta do what you gotta do".


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## Jayimess

This won't get a reply from Seth, methinks...this thread is kind of dead.

As for a career, this industry is a crapshoot.  NO SCHOOL WILL GUARANTEE YOU A JOB.   There are plenty of students in my program at USC that have families and spouses.  They're figuring out how to do it.

Best of luck.  I hope it all works out for you. There's a song I'm very fond of that reminds me of your post.

"I have a friend in a bright and distant town,

She's found a common balance.

Where you do your work when you do your love,

And they pay you, and praise your many talents."


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