# Film school or the Robert Rodriguez route?



## tlee8us (Aug 13, 2005)

Hey guys,

I haven't posted anything here for a longtime. I've recently been look at the major film schools on the net and I thought about going to film school at point. But tuition is rising higher and higher each year passes by. I almost thought about attendng at the Savannah College of Art and Design. But I pulled out due to the fact the tuition is around 35 grand for one year and it's a four-year college. It's tough to get into some film schools, I've heard that the North Carolina School of the Arts has a good film program but is extremely hard to get in. Then I read Robert Rodriguez's 10-mintue film school. It's a interesting article and made more sense than going to film school and spending over 20-30 grand. I'm actually think about doing the Robert Rodriguez route. What do you guys think?


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## MeGrimlock (Aug 13, 2005)

Hell, I'll be the first to say go for it, but, ultimately it's up to you.  It's mostly a matter of how confident you are about making it into the industry at all.  The one thing film school gives you, besides some techniques and technical knowledge that you could find anywhere else, is a false sense of security.  The industry is a gamble school or no, you're no more guaranteed to work on  a movie if you go to school or you don't.  If you want to play it safe, go.  Yet, good luck all the same.

elliott...


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## killswitch (Aug 14, 2005)

If you go the Rodriguez way, you better be prepared to literally BREAK into the industry. If you invested in film school, your for sure to land a job in the industry, but don't expect anything higher than to be: the guy in the corner who puts gaffer's tape on everything before the shoot. Or in Rodriguez's words, "the big time position of the guy who brings the director his coffee,". I personally say, hell with film school. Unless of course you can either afford it or you get a scholarship or some crap like that. Which doesn't normally happen. 10 minutes is all you need.


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 14, 2005)

I don't think the Robert Rodrigez method is a great choice to breaking into the film industry... at least not for everyone.  Besides, there are pros and cons to gong to film school and going with the Rodrigez method. 

The main thing to understand is that Rodrigez method involves some risk.  Film school is financially burdensome and also tough to get into.  But I think it's different for everyone... if you're just out to make movies and you're confident in yourself, then go with Robert Rodrigez method.  If you're out to gain knowledge of film production and feel you want practie inside a school setting, and have access to equipment and your peers, then film school is a good choice.... but get what you need from film school and leave... I wouldn't get too hung up on getting a degree.  And even more importantly, I think film schools have to be done with internships outside the school in order to gain real world knowledge... and the best schools where the teachers are working 
professionals and not old failed filmmakers.


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## Hoeks (Aug 14, 2005)

the north carolina school is worth a try...good school and not toooo hard to get in imho.

but for your question: Film school..definitely. Dont go the rodriguez way unless you are already damn good

There is only one negative point about filmschool and that is the cost of it.

on the other side, you will work for 4 years with highly talented people and you can crew EVERY WEEKEND on a film that is shot either digital, 16mm, super16mm or 35mm. THAT is great experience. You got teachers who WILL help you advance as a filmmaker IF you are open minded about listening to people who may have failed in the business but are great professors nonetheless (yes, most teachers who failed are actually better teachers than the ones who are out there...it really doesnt matter how successful you are to teach us what we need to know about filmmaking).

go for film school and you will also have the best time of your life with parties, new friends and cute girls


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## Dickens (Aug 14, 2005)

> Originally posted by Hoeks:
> Dont go the rodriguez way unless you are already damn good



Robert Rodriguez isn't damn good though. . . Shark Boy and Lava Girl, anyone?


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## suspectx (Aug 14, 2005)

This post is a generalized post:

“DO NOT” go to film school if you plan on working as a 1st Assistant Director, 2nd assistant Director, anywhere on the camera crew or any crew for that matter.  Let me say this; you can make some really good money working on film crews, example being is I worked as a P.A. and I also worked in the art department for the T.V. show "Everwood".  The 1st AD was getting paid around $1,000 bucks a day. And the head of the Art Department was making $45 bucks an hour (different pay scales) The 1st AD started out as a P.A. back in the day. So you need to work yourself up the ladder.  

First you start as an intern and then you work your way up, and “you will” work your way up, it just takes time.  Don't waste your time at film school if that's the route your going.  There are bogus film schools out there.  That's why you need to research each one you are interested in; i.e. who came out of that school, how many are successful, is it a good program, who are the teachers (they need to be working professionals) backing up what KURT WAGNER said. 

Sure you can try Rodriguez route, but think how many thousand upon thousands of filmmakers are trying that.   Compare his success to the millions of people who are going through film school and who are trying it on their own without film school.  Sounds depressing doesn't it?  That's why filmmakers in general need to ask themselves if they have the strength, the talent, the drive, and the energy to become successful.  Is this what they really want to do? If you have that drive I feel that you'll be successful film school or no.   Really, people need to think more realistic, I have seen countless friends of mine who have finished film school and are trying to shop their script around L.A. and nothing happens, or that they're trying to be the next big director, it's like trying to win the lottery.  

I say this again, if you're going to film school to work as a crewmember on any kind of film production you are doing the wrong thing.  Some people spend all their time and money on film school and they do end up getting people their coffee. I am finishing my Masters Degree in film at Art Center College of Design and let me tell you, most people aren't going there so they can be the first to bring coffee to Robert Rodriguez. I've worked in the film business for a long time.  I feel that school is right for me at this point.  If others feel it's not their thing than don't do it.  Like I said some will crash and burn after film school, it's just what happens.  Again you need a to have goals and you need to have a drive, talent is a “bit” important too.

10 minutes is not all you need, if that's your idea of a becoming good filmmaker you're in the wrong business, most people on this site will tell you that.  The more you learn the better you get; Spielberg even says he is learning new things all the time.  

If you go to film school you should be going to become a director, a director of photography or a producer”¦with a few other things in between. Focus on what you want to do, decide early and tailor you classes to that decision. On a side note; I think you can learn to be an editor in ways other than film school (a school tailored to editing perhaps) but that's a whole other story, most film schools only touch on the basics of editing.


There is way too much info to bunch this all into a few paragraphs.  I hope I didn't ramble too much.


Nathan Fackrell


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## Evan Kubota (Aug 14, 2005)

> The main thing to understand is that Rodrigez method involves some risk.



And film school doesn't? The percentage of people who graduated from film school (within the past 10-20 years) and have become recognizable directors is very low.

"Robert Rodriguez isn't damn good though. . . Shark Boy and Lava Girl, anyone?"

Sin City and El Mariachi, anyone? Not to be an ass but I'm fairly certain he's made better films than you have, or else you'd be in his position and he in yours 

Film school is somewhat unique in that employment opportunities at the level people would desire are few and far between. Imagine medical school if only 4-5% of graduates were actually able to find employment as doctors or surgeons - what if the rest had to be X-ray technicians or nurses? (not that anything is wrong with those occupations)

The point is that 'creative' industries operate mainly on merit and not on degrees. Same applies if you want to be a rock musician. You can go to Berklee but you have no more of a chance (not taking into account your skill level/talent) at making it than the dude playing in the bar band a few blocks down Mass. Ave. Similar to NYU, many of the profs at Berklee are failed or small-time musicians who thought they had enough skill to make it, but ended up teaching because their music career simply didn't pan out. You can learn a lot from those guys, but also learn from their existence that very few people reach the level where everyone wants to be.

Just remember that there are no guarantees and a degree is just a $100,000 piece of paper. LA is filled with thousands of others like you will be after graduation - they're employed in the pizza delivery industry


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## E.D.M. (Aug 14, 2005)

> You can go to Berklee but you have no more of a chance (not taking into account your skill level/talent) at making it than the dude playing in the bar band a few blocks down Mass. Ave. Similar to NYU, many of the profs at Berklee are failed or small-time musicians who thought they had enough skill to make it, but ended up teaching because their music career simply didn't pan out. You can learn a lot from those guys, but also learn from their existence that very few people reach the level where everyone wants to be.



As a Berklee graduate, I beg to differ, Evan.
College, for me, was a speedway to and through knowledge, and left enough study materials for years thereafter.  Though your statement about the teachers is partly true, you should also aknowledge that having a career (in music or film, for instance), and "making it", are two things that can be evaluated in terms of commercial success, and/OR take a very personal meaning, depending on your priorities in life, among many other things.  In other words, not "everyone" want to be at the same place, or "level".
Some of these teachers never had any intention of "making it", or else they would at least have tried by moving to NYC, LA, or even Nashville.  Instead, they chose to focus on the music, the art form, and not having to surround, mask, or enhance their talents by doing a bunch of PR, and taking a lot of BS.  Instead they chose to teach, play a few gigs here and there, and devote some more time to raise a family, for instance.  In their terms, they made it alright.  They're teaching at one of the most recognized institutions for contemporary music education, they have the chance to jam with other teachers who have enjoyed other types of success, and the many visiting artists that don;t bring their own bands.  And believe me, most of them seem pretty satisfied.  Other don't, and certainly fit the stereotype you described.
But, regardless of their career choices, I was fortunate enough to get something useful from most of them (which is something you do mention).  And I'm talking about stuff that's not in the textbooks, or any book for that matter.  Even the ones that have tried to make it and failed had learned something from their failure that could be passed on.
While at college, I had the chance to play (and had some of my music played) for the first time for an audience of 1500 (or whatever the capacity of the BPC is).  I got my work critiqued by professionals who had been in the industry for over 30 years (yeah, the industry).  One of my arrangements got taken on a Latin American tour by a faculty member.  I got tips and tricks that helped me skip the bar down Mass. Ave. if I wanted to, since I had done my fair share of bars (playing, I mean).  And a whole bunch of ther s***.  And none of this is on my resume, simply because it also expanded my skills in such ways that I have since gone far beyond these anecdotes.  I could simply not have gotten this from playing at a bar (not to say there aren't succesful bands that started out that way).
Oh, btw, I also worked my ass off both in and out of college.  If you just sit there for four years, yeah, your degree WILL be an expensive piece of paper.  But it will be your fault, not theirs.  And nothing will happen to you, college or no college, if you just sit there and expect stuff to happen to you.  Well, actually... your bass player might get you a gig playing at some bar down Mass. Ave.  

(Going over this before I post it, I just want to clarify it started out as a reply to Evan, then it sort of shifted into a reply to the original poster from a musician's point of view.  I'm sorry if I went too far into what seemed like an autobiography, but it was meant to reinforce my point)

E.


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## paul (Aug 15, 2005)

I say, do whatever you want.  If you want to go to film school, then go.  People will say to go, and people will say don't and be Robert Rodriguez (hell yeah!)

Me personally?  I didn't.  I got into to the two I applied to, because I've got at least one ounce of talent somewhere, however I opted not to go due to the fact that I'm paying for college myself, and since they were out of state I would've needed to sell my liver to pay for it.  My friends who ended up going say it's a farce, and one went so far as to tell me that I made the right decision in not going.  I can't say if I'd feel the same way, but I'm studying communication, making short films, being contracted to do various things for the state of NJ, and loving it.

My personal philosophy is that if you make a good movie, and it's actually good, festivals will pick it up, it will be well recieved, and then repeat.  If your movie is good, show it to everyone.  I made one movie that was regarded as good, I keep copies of it in the trunk of my car.  I've run into a few people at my local Starbucks who've gotten it played somewhere, people generally liked it, but there's not much in terms of releasing a short film, hence why I'm working on a good full length (as opposed to the crap I've made/think is funny.)  

Film school or no film school, either you'll make a good movie or you won't.  Quentin Tarantino (I hate bringing him up) didn't go to film school, he watched one too many movies, clumped them all together and made Reservoir Dogs, one of my favorite movies.  Paul Thomas Anderson is another one who went to film school for two days, then got his tuition back and made a short film, then went on to direct Boogie Nights and Magnolia.

You can go the film school route, Eli Roth did, he has a big ego and (as far as I've seen) minimal talent.  Cabin Fever sucked.

You can go either way.  I'm not knocking film school, but it's not for everyone.  You get connections, but without film school I've had no problem getting any connections so far.


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## Hoeks (Aug 15, 2005)

what most people dont realize is that you dont go to filmschool to become successful really...you go to learn...thats what a school is for...to learn and be criticied. and that is worth 200000 dollar of admission because it WILL make you a much better film maker


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## Evan Kubota (Aug 15, 2005)

> what most people dont realize is that you dont go to filmschool to become successful really...you go to learn...thats what a school is for...to learn and be criticied.



I realize that but I still maintain you can learn as much in the 'real world' or by doing your own projects. Again, the music school analogy applies. You can surely go to a conservatory like Juilliard, or you can learn yourself by using books and listening to the masters. There's so much information in this world that it's important to realize film school is not the only place to learn how to make movies. It has some things combined into a more convenient, pre-packaged environment, but the really important stuff (finding actors, coming up with ideas) no one can do for you.

I don't think I have a problem translating my ideas to screen - obviously I can improve, but the technical stuff is secondary and not something I feel I have to pay tens of thousands of dollars a year to learn. I tend to focus on ideas.


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## R. Cotton (Aug 17, 2005)

> Written by suspectx:
> 
> DO NOT go to film school if you plan on working as a 1st Assistant Director, 2nd assistant Director, anywhere on the camera crew or any crew for that matter....
> I say this again, if you're going to film school to work as a crewmember on any kind of film production you are doing the wrong thing.  Some people spend all their time and money on film school and they do end up getting people their coffee. I am finishing my Masters Degree in film at Art Center College of Design and let me tell you, most people aren't going there so they can be the first to bring coffee to Robert Rodriguez.



I can't agree with you more.  School isn't for those who want to be in low-level positions in crews.  It's for those who want to be working screenwriters, actors, and directors.  No matter what route you make, you must bring in a sense of realism.  You probably, no matter how much raw talent or ambition you have, will never make it to the level that RR or the other 1% that are there.  You'll probably not call the shots.  Instead you'll be "working" under someone else and be happy to earning that paycheck that you worked very hard for.

_Let me just note what suspectx touched on:_ If you don't have drive and self-motivation, you have nothing in the film industry.  No amount of film school can give you that intangable.


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## dpete (Aug 23, 2005)

Robert Rogruguez went to film school and then broke Hollywood's door down, so how about doing both?


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## Josh (Aug 23, 2005)

> Originally posted by dpete:
> Robert Rogruguez went to film school and then broke Hollywood's door down, so how about doing both?



Actually, yeah. That's a good point. Robert Rodriquez _did_ go to film school. 

Perhaps he meant to say the _Tarantino_ route...


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## HSJFilm (Aug 23, 2005)

> Originally posted by dpete:
> Robert Rogruguez went to film school and then broke Hollywood's door down, so how about doing both?


`

but he didn't finish film school!


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## paul (Aug 23, 2005)

that seems to be a common motiff, Paul Thomas Anderson went to film school and didn't finish, as did Kevin Smith.  I'm not saying either of them are any better than anyone else, but I can't think of any directors off hand that I'm 100% sure finished film school.

EDIT:  Eli Roth.


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## Hoeks (Aug 23, 2005)

I do, MArc Forster, NYU undergrad, made me want to go to NYU

and many many more (look into recent USC grads, also NYU master grads...or AFI)


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## ktabes (Aug 24, 2005)

well paul thomas anderson only went for two days so that really doesnt count.


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## paul (Aug 24, 2005)

If I had a networking job to do, went in, turned on one computer and then left, I didn't finish my networking job either.  Two days or two months, regardless, he still didn't finish film school.


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## Chris W (Aug 24, 2005)

I'll think I'll chime in...

What Robert Rodriguez did was extremely risky - he raised most of his money by subjecting himself to medical tests. That wasn't entirely all of the risk - he was risking thousands of dollars that his one film would be a success.

My point it....if you go to film school - the worst thing that could happen out of all of it is that you get a degree in film and have financial aid debt.

If you go the Robert Rodriguez route...the worst thing that could happen is you have a massive credit card bill...and no college degree. (credit card debt it much worse than financial aid debt)

Making it in this business is extremely risky and rare as a director. There are hundreds, even thousands, just like you wanting to be a director in hollywood - and only a few make it. That isn't to say any of you will...but..

Something to ponder. 

-Chris
Studentfilms.com


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## Chris W (Aug 24, 2005)

Actually another way to do it that I just thought of, is to get a degree in something else that interests you, if not film. 

In your spare time, intern at local production / post-production places...then just go to Hollywood and start working/interning/pa-ing to get experience and your first job.

You'd have to the the latter anyway even if you got a film degree....but now you have a "real" degree to fall back on if everything doesn't work out.

That would be the extremely conservative approach though. Not a bad one...just gives you more options.

Of course, I loved getting my film degree - it was alot of fun. But then again I also enjoyed the other non-filmmaking courses that I took in college. I even minored in French and spent a year abroad in Grenoble, France - which was probably the best thing that I ever did.

Anyways - there is no set path to get into the business. But on the scale of risky things to do with you hard earned cash...with 1 being no risk and 10 being extremely risky:

Making a film with your money/credit cards hoping to make it: 9
Getting a degree in film school: 6
Getting a "normal" degree and then going to grad school or just start working in the business: 3

Good topic though. 

-Chris
Studentfilms.com


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## Hoeks (Aug 24, 2005)

---Making a film with your money/credit cards hoping to make it: 9---

make that a 11


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## Evan Kubota (Aug 24, 2005)

"If you go the Robert Rodriguez route...the worst thing that could happen is you have a massive credit card bill...and no college degree. (credit card debt it much worse than financial aid debt)"

I'm not sure if you read his book, but he didn't incur any additional debt to fund El Mariachi... all of the money was either contributed by Carlos Gallardo or himself.

If you earn the money first, then make the film, it's not risky except for in the sense that you converted the money into a film. The film may or may not get distribution, but the money certainly wasn't going to carry you into the industry by itself.

Also from Rodriguez' book - he breaks down his thought process pretty well regarding risk. Fairly logically, he explains that he had researched the direct-to-video Spanish action movie market and knew that they could get *at least* $5-10,000 for the project which cost about that much to make. I guess he was confident that him and Carlos could make a movie that would be as good or better than the normal stuff in that market. It was actually a fairly intelligent move ... and not as risky as spending $25k on something like, say, a 35mm short, which has limited distribution options


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## E.D.M. (Aug 24, 2005)

What's been said about some succesful filmmakers not finishing college is also true of a lot of succesful musicians, and I think the reason is simple.

Many succesful individuals share a common trait: they realize what they want to do very early in life.  Accordingly, their research in their chosen occupation starts early, and by the time they get to college they are already very aware of their strengths and weaknesses.  So they do go to school, take whetever there is that they feel they need, and then get the hell outta there.

They set their own path, and college works as long as it is instrumental to their goals.  Once they feel the required courses are taking them away from their path, they keep going by themselves (sometimes even taking private lessons instead of a course that must follow an established program or criteria).

"To become a better filmmaker" (or musician, or whatever) is a somewhat generic goal, and chances are those who can't zero in on more specific needs will only get a generic benefit out of any education, and thus get in the industry (if ever) through generic jobs.

You can only hope not to realize what your real goals (needs, purpose, vocation, etc.) are when it's too late (meaning, you're competing against people half your age with twice the experience).

E.


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## RFranco (Aug 25, 2005)

hmm. 

you all know that Robert Rodriguez when to film school for about two years and did quite a number of short films there before he tried to do El Mariachi right?


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## Josh (Aug 25, 2005)

Yes, RFranco. If you read the entire topic you would notice that some of us mentioned it.


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## ktabes (Aug 26, 2005)

well i guess im going to have to sell my body for scientific expieriments like he did.


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## Kyle Johnson (Aug 26, 2005)

or become a man *****


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## Josh (Aug 26, 2005)

Please don't dodge the censors. Thanks.


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## Kegan (Aug 26, 2005)

Think he meant man hore*  

*-board edits words

-Kegan


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## Forsakenproductions (Aug 26, 2005)

Dude, guys, I was going to tell everyone in a seperate post, but this is a great place to do it.

 GET AN INTERNSHIP! Matthew Earl Jones just moved his office literally ten minutes from my house. I met him and got an internship. Hes getting ready to sell shows to the travel channel and things like that. And, get this, hes using top of the lien equipment that I can use.

 If I stick with him, he'll lead me to someone higher up, eventually I'll be jumping over him and doing more.

Check it out: http://www.earljonesinstitute.com/


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## Evan Kubota (Aug 27, 2005)

> If I stick with him, he'll lead me to someone higher up, eventually I'll be jumping over him and doing more.



Not be obnoxious, but what makes you think you'll be able to 'jump over him' when you're the one interning at his office?


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## Diego (Aug 27, 2005)

I say don't go to film school. 35k a year for 4 years is a lot of money to invest in school, considering you might not even get a job after that, and if you do it might be taping wires to the ground anyhow.


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## Forsakenproductions (Aug 29, 2005)

Thats a reasonable question Evan, I wouldn't think your being obnoxious.

 By "jumping over him," I did not mean to sound like I would become superior. I realized that after you asked.  But he's constantly in touch with Hollywood, keeping in touch with all the big timers. Its only a matter of time before I start meeting them, and Mr. Jones starts reccomending me. he's at where he wants to be at, but I want to go on to Hollywood and make it in the "big time." So when I say "jump over him" I mean that I want to go farther and he will help me get there.


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## TizzyEntertainment (Nov 27, 2005)

Hey well it would be a topic about Robert Rodriguez if i did not toss in my two pence now would it.

There are lots of things to consider. In many ways I did the RR thing in that I made alot of silly shorts, went to film school briefly but did not graduate because i started working. Thought I did not write and direct a big smash hit feature. I don't think that will even be my first out of the gate as I plan to do several staright to video offerings first but it is in the plan.

Lets look at a few things though. 
1) Education is NEVER bad, whethere it is film school or other more practical disciplines. Now there are bad film schools out there, people who will fill your head with nonsense and make you doubt yourself, or teach you the wrong things. I had a very supportive department chair when i went who allowed me to go out and prove my theories rather then just dash them to the ground outright (which she later confided she had thought of doing, but after i proved her thoughts wrong was glad she did not) now my DP since film schhol and good friend, he started int he same program 2 years before me and had a different chair. His story is rather funny, of how he accidentally wandered intoa film class and listened to this guy tell all these new students how most wont even show up for the next class let alone do ANYTHING in the industry. The thought that they might is a joke and no one from "this town" will ever work in the majors. That actually drove him to sign up for the class, just to prove him wrong. He makes a very nice living as a DP now. 

Film school can use you, or you can use it. I used it for gear, I used it for all important permits and insurance. I got internships and learned of productions that I volunteered on as a PA UNPAID I might add. 

While we are on the topic, that is a very good way to start working. You can always contact your local film commission, ask about productions. My friend and I worked with a fire arms prop master that was doing Bad Boys 2, we found out where the production office was and went down there one day... with starbucks! We walked in and said, "We are looking for John Patterson... oh BTW, anyone want a latte?" We worked on several scenes with John until Michael Bay anal retentive coke head that he is got paranoid about "faces he did not know" on his set during key scenes. But it was a great experience and paid pretty good. In whatever you do, be genuione though. A few thins that might help are as follows.

If you get on a production as a PA there are three things you can do right out of the gate to possibly get you work on another show.
1) If call time is 7am, be there at 6:45.
2) When you are asked to get something don't walk, atleast jog. Make an effort to do your task quickly and efficently.
3) If you aren't doing somehting else and you see someone who needs help... help them! (now if you were told "watch this C-stand and don't move" then DON'T MOVE)
4) Be personable, be someone the crew remembers and DON'T spout about the state of cinema today, and the schlock Hollywood puts out ect. Most of these people will be seasoned pros on the smaller end. If they are local they would probablly love nothing more then a cushy union shoot on a big show with less work and more money.

I did these things my first show and was offered a paying spot the next week. The company I work with now I work for in many capacities from Director to editor to Art Director, Dolly grip and even glorified PA at times. They are loyal to me though, and don't care if i have a better gig elsewhere. Mush as I love directing i really can't complain about getting $200 a day to haul a little gear around. I have worked for moving companies before. ALOT more labor intensive and no 2 bills a day. I ahve worked as a PA, or just shooting BTS on several music videos lately where after the shoot I was the one who got to edit them. 

So many different approaches, many possible outcomes. One thing to keep in mind. So many are bashing their heads against the ceiling when almost anyone can slide under the fence. It isn't easy, alot of work involved regardless. 

I leave you with this thought. If I could convince you I can tell the future, and told you I have seen yours and you do not "Make it". You never make a great film, people never know your name. You make a living but nothing spectacular, you never get that break. If I could tell you that would you still go for it? If yes, then it does not matter what route you take. I cannot imagine doing anything else, and I wont.
-Tizzy


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