# screenwriting



## ShawnW (Oct 11, 2006)

I know everybody asks for top 5 lists of film schools and that it's virtually impossible to do that, but I was wondering if anybody had some good insight into what graduate schools are best for screenwriting.

I feel like the top 5 in film grad school are USC, UCLA, AFI, NYU, and Columbia (with Chapman, Loyola Marymount, Emerson, and a few others thrown in there), but since screenwriting is usually it's own thing, I was wondering if there are schools I'm missing. I know Northwestern, for example, has a good writing program (at least creative writing and journalism) and wondered if that carried over into film, as far as being a top notch grad screenwriting program goes.


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## Hill Dawson Kane (Oct 11, 2006)

How many of your top 5 screenplays ever were written by people who went to these schools?


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## Evan Kubota (Oct 12, 2006)

Dude... screenwriting is even less degree-dependent than directing. No one will care if you have a master's in 'screenwriting' (not even sure such a thing is possible). Studios want to acquire scripts that they think will turn a profit. Simple. Your chances of coming up with something like that are not going to improve from handing a school $80,000.


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## Josh (Oct 12, 2006)

He didn't ask for your input, guys. And last time I checked, very few people on this site were seasoned professionals who have anywhere near enough knowledge or experience to claim to know what the "industry" wants. Let people do what they feel is right for themselves.

Shawn, the schools you mentioned are very good. Emerson recently added a screenwriting major as well, so I'd recommend looking into that.


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## Mariano (Oct 12, 2006)

> Originally posted by ShawnW:
> I know everybody asks for top 5 lists of film schools and that it's virtually impossible to do that, but I was wondering if anybody had some good insight into what graduate schools are best for screenwriting.
> 
> I feel like the top 5 in film grad school are USC, UCLA, AFI, NYU, and Columbia (with Chapman, Loyola Marymount, Emerson, and a few others thrown in there), but since screenwriting is usually it's own thing, I was wondering if there are schools I'm missing. I know Northwestern, for example, has a good writing program (at least creative writing and journalism) and wondered if that carried over into film, as far as being a top notch grad screenwriting program goes.



ShawnW, i've been making a lot of research for filmschools since i'm looking for an undergrad program but i've heard a lot that columbia is the best place to go if what you want to do is write. their program focuses a lot in writting rather than producing. nyu is kinda more visual and gives more importance to visual rather than wrinting.
hope this is helpful!


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## Kyle Johnson (Oct 12, 2006)

just get this book and you'll never have to go to school again!
http://www.theartistsway.com/index.php?section=4&sub=9&id=190


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## Brian Burstein (Oct 12, 2006)

I'm currently in the undergraduate screenwriting program at NYU Tisch called "Dramatic Writing." There's a grad program too. It's definitely been a huge help in understanding what makes a story "work." It's true that you're not going to become "creative" by getting a degree in screenwriting, but they give you the tools, the craft techniques, that will help you understand what your ideas and screenplays lack and need.

Evan is correct in saying that your screenplay is more important than the school you went to, but you can't always expect to write a screenplay worthy of being sold without the skills that the profs will help you develop.


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## Evan Kubota (Oct 12, 2006)

> He didn't ask for your input, guys.



I think he did. It's implicit when you start a thread on a message board.

If you really want to just write and have no interest in making films, why not become a novelist? You certainly retain more control.


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## titaniumdoughnut (Oct 12, 2006)

But you know those people who write really good movies, and don't direct them? They're called... oh wait... what was it... screenwriters! I suggest you look into it. You'd be surprised at how many of them there are. I'm told it's a booming business.

I mean, c'mon. Is there something wrong with wanting to write films?


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## REDking (Oct 12, 2006)

Look at that biting sarcasm!  I think they've finally pushed TD over the edge! Quick lock the thread!

Screenwriting is the single most important element of filmmaking. I don't think they were putting that down, just the need for filmschool or training, of course they are wrong, as usual. 

When HDK and Kablume said gems of wisdom like, "How many of your top 5 screenplays ever were written by people who went to these schools" and "No one will care if you have a master's in 'screenwriting'" they again show their need to mentor from the absolute depths of their ignorance. 

There is no set path, therefore if this kid has a chance to go to college for screenwriting and this is his interest then college is his path. The person who will ultimately "care" if he has a masters will be him.

If you guys are advising him to buy screenwriting for dummies and "just write" then I assume you don't write, because it dosn't work that way.

Screenwriting is a craft that demands constant training and growth, school is a great way to get started.


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## titaniumdoughnut (Oct 12, 2006)

HAHAhah ha... hah. Hi.

In the event that I go insane, Josh has the emergency shutdown codes, and most of you should make it out alive.


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## Kyle Johnson (Oct 12, 2006)

its ok im here to represent all your repressed insanities.

if youre using a screenwriter i would work with that person constantly, always throwing ideas back and forth. Filmmaking isnt something you assign people roles to, everyone should always be working creatively and with everyone else. 

Ive failed to have accomplished this is any way but it seems like itd work.


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## REDking (Oct 12, 2006)

> Filmmaking isnt something you assign people roles




Boom pole? F*ck that, I'm craft services today. No wait I want to direct gimme that beret!


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## Josh (Oct 12, 2006)

> Originally posted by Evan Kubota:
> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He didn't ask for your input, guys.



I think he did. It's implicit when you start a thread on a message board.

If you really want to just write and have no interest in making films, why not become a novelist? You certainly retain more control. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You missed my point, so for your benefit I'll repeat it. 



> Originally posted by Josh:
> Let people do what they feel is right for themselves.


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## Kyle Johnson (Oct 12, 2006)

adsactly. nothing like mixing things up to add to the chaotic mess that art is and always will be. All these kids making their stuff pretty, boys with makeup...its understandable. I do all the time, BUT NOT in films. degradation is the tits


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## Evan Kubota (Oct 12, 2006)

> But you know those people who write really good movies, and don't direct them? They're called... oh wait... what was it... screenwriters!



I didn't know there were any of those left any more. Seriously, virtually all of my favorite directors currently living write their own screenplays, or at least collaborate. Name a few notable screenwriters now who don't direct and never have... it seems like they always get the itch to (Paul Haggis... bleh).

The problem with screenwriting as a singular discipline is that it requires you to:

a) care enough about your writing to do a good job
b) relinquish control completely to someone else

Meeting those two criteria is not easy, which is why I suggested fiction writing 

And no school is going to be able to teach you how to write. Of course you can learn formatting, etc. but that's not any help at all when you actually sit down to write your screenplay.


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## Kyle Johnson (Oct 12, 2006)

one of my greatest accomplishments in school was never learning how to write their way


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## titaniumdoughnut (Oct 12, 2006)

Charlie Kaufman?

I see your point, but it's really not addressing the big picture. There exist (gasp!) a number of people who care passionately about their screenplays, and either don't need to, can't, or don't want to, direct them. While there may not be many writers who write good stuff over and over again and stay out of directing, many terrific films are written by non-directors. Take The Departed. The writer adapted that from another film, and his other credits are dubious, but this one's a gem. Brilliant to the point of genius, and know it wasn't all lifted from Infernal Affairs.

On the issue of being taught how to write. It's not really possible. What I find writing professors do is make you think. Once you start thinking, they help you collect the thoughts. They just sort of guide you to the door.


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## REDking (Oct 12, 2006)

> Seriously, virtually all of my favorite directors currently living write their own screenplays



And none of them went to school? Listen I get your point! Art comes from the soul, whoopty doo, what film school does (screenwriting included in most cirriculums) is forces you to produce. Film school is clearly not the answer for everyone but for alot of people it gets them off their a$$.


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## Brian Burstein (Oct 12, 2006)

> And no school is going to be able to teach you how to write. Of course you can learn formatting, etc. but that's not any help at all when you actually sit down to write your screenplay.



Just curious which screenwriting school you went to?

Formatting you can teach yourself by reading screenplays. And although a screenwriting program at film schools doesn't necessarily turn you into a good writer, they teach you what makes good writing, and why good writing is good writing. It makes you aware of things that you weren't aware of before, so that when you write on your own you can identify what works and what doesn't, and why it works or doesn't work.

If you understand what they teach you and use it to guide your writing (as opposed to controlling your writing), studying in a screenwriting progam will only make you a better writer.


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## Evan Kubota (Oct 12, 2006)

> Film school is clearly not the answer for everyone but for alot of people it gets them off their a$$.



Right, if you can spare that much money just to have someone motivate you. I can't.

I didn't say that none of my favorite living directors went to film school, but thinking about it, it's probably true. I doubt Malick did, and I'm certain Gallo didn't. I'm not sure about Cronenberg.

I'm not saying there is literally nothing to learn from schools. I think the difference here is a matter of degree - I tend to believe that the amount and type of knowledge you gain about screenwriting from a school is probably not a good return for the financial investment.


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## REDking (Oct 12, 2006)

"I didn't say that none of my favorite living directors went to film school, but thinking about it, it's probably true. I doubt Malick did"

Terrance Malick MFA from American Film Institute...

oops. But who needs facts when we have opinions.


"Right, if you can spare that much money just to have someone motivate you. I can't."

Are you kidding me with the "poor boy" routine? There are many good film programs that are affordable. Plus if you have never taken a screenwriting course how can you speak on it? I've gone through my program and while it wasn't a "threshold to success" as you seem to think we are catagorizing school, it was a great experience where I was able to get over myself and learn.

Me and Kabuzzkill should do a weekly TV show  where we just undercut each other!


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## Hill Dawson Kane (Oct 12, 2006)

> I doubt Malick did



Didn't Malick go to AFI?


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## ShawnW (Oct 12, 2006)

Yeah, I mean in response to the guy who says nobody cares if you have an MFA in screenwriting, you're absolutely right. But nobody cares if you have an MFA in directing or cinematography either, or any art basically. It's going to come down to what you can do. But if in the process of getting the MFA you get a lot better, then it's worth it.

This is why I'm only applying to the best film schools, because I'm not out to pay for motivation or I would have stayed where I went to undergrad for another couple years. I want to get a lot better at writing and I think the fastest and most efficient way to do that is to get into an MFA program at a top school for it.

I also happen to think you get a much better feel for directing starting off as a writer, versus starting off as a director and then trying to write. Because like someone else said, the writer is not the most important person on a film, but writing is the most important element. And so it basically comes down to knowing how to tell a story. And if you can write one down, ultimately, if you're good, you can probably direct one. You can have no idea about visuals and putting shots together, but that's what you have a DP and editor for. If you know your characters, you can probably direct actors. And if you know your story, you can probably put together a film as a director.

But I've stopped thinking about directing for now. I wouldn't want to ever direct a film until I feel like I can tell a story on paper first. I think this is similar to why you're going to see big-name writers like Charlie Kaufman and Alan Ball finally starting to direct, along with Haggis, Scott Frank, eventually William Monahan, etc. Kaufman could have directed the Adaptation script if he demanded to, I guarantee you somebody would have made that deal, and Monahan is getting so big that he could probably direct if he chose to also. But they've both held off for a while.

So what I'm saying is that I think it's better, if you want to be an actual writer, to focus in writing, and to let the rest happen when it happens, if it happens.


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## Evan Kubota (Oct 13, 2006)

Right, it seems Malick did attend AFI. That's why I said "doubt," not "am certain." In this case I was wrong.

Shawn seems to have a decent idea of why he wants to go to grad school for screenwriting. That's good, but I have to disagree about 'starting as a writer' being a better path to directing. In today's film world, very few good directors migrate from the writing discipline. It's better to visualize the two as part of the same process, and shelving one to focus solely on the other is not as effective as considering both.

I mean, I struggle even with writing my own adaptations. I could never conceive of happily directing someone else's script without major alterations or rewrites.

Yes, writing is important. But the best script in the world is just a piece of paper, and it by no means guarantees a good film. The direction is more important than the writing, IMO.


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## REDking (Oct 13, 2006)

> very few good directors migrate from the writing discipline



Francis Ford Coppola, Quentin Tarantino, Wes Anderson, M Night, Woody Allen, the coen brothers, this could go on and on...

I realize our definition of GOOD differs but admit these are established directors who came used writing as a maens to direct.

A good majority of new directors got their break by holding their script "hostage" and demanding that they direct. In fact the chance of becoming a director from the writing pool is far greater than going from many other positions on set to director. And a far greater way of breaking into thwe industry than being a PA.


"The direction is more important than the writing"

Completely false, the two are so dependent on each other that to dissmiss one or the other is plain ignorance.


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## Evan Kubota (Oct 13, 2006)

> Completely false, the two are so dependent on each other that to dissmiss one or the other is plain ignorance.



I didn't "dismiss" anything. But you can't say that the writing is *more* important than directing if you're considering a finished film. As I said above, a good script is not the same as a good film.

And your examples are not what I was referring to. Tarantino wrote what, a single film that he didn't direct (before Reservoir Dogs)?

According to IMDB Shyamalan (cough, hack) has only written one screenplay he didn't direct - Stuart Little. And that was seven years after his writing/directing debut. Same for Wes Anderson. He's directed only what he has written, and has not written anything that he didn't direct.

Actually, what point were you trying to make from these examples?

It seems like you didn't understand my original statement.

I was *not* saying that few good directors write. The exact opposite, in fact. I was saying that good directors generally don't come from *writers*. That is, well-established screenwriters who only write rarely transition to directing and are good at it.

And directors who may write a single salable script before directing (Tarantino?) don't count.

Again, I was referring to established screenwriters that move into directing. Understand?


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## REDking (Oct 13, 2006)

I'll repeat:



> these are established directors who used writing as a maens to direct.



Your attempt to seperate writing and direcing makes little sense. My point was screenwriting is VERY important as the modern director has roots in the craft. And please refer to the original topic as I was making an argument that screenwriting is a legitimate path to becoming a director and an alcoholic. And if that kid wants to go to school for screenwriting than more power to him.

Are you a film student? From what perch do you find yourself qualified to make comments about being a film student. Because you come off as someone who secretly pines to be in film school but couldn't work it out.


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## Evan Kubota (Oct 13, 2006)

> Your attempt to seperate writing and direcing makes little sense. My point was screenwriting is VERY important as the modern director has roots in the craft.



Read my post again, dude. I said no such thing. I wrote:

"It's better to visualize the two as part of the same process, and shelving one to focus solely on the other is not as effective as considering both."

What do you mean by 'using writing as a means to direct'? That's not the same thing as what you were implying and what the original poster was explicitly stating - to have a 'career' as a screenwriter after getting an MFA in screenwriting with the hope that this would translate into directing. This is completely different than the path followed by the directors you mentioned, none of whom had any sort of extensive screenwriting career.

You seem to have a reading comprehension issue - and as for your final point, I'm not sure what you mean. If you follow my posts here you should be aware that I'm not attending a 'film' school. I do, however, constantly write and make films. My own education, I guess.

And we're back to the foundational issue, which you apparently don't understand, about posting on message boards: I can make whatever comments I want in any thread I want. "Couldn't work it out"? Right. Think whatever you want


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## REDking (Oct 13, 2006)

Sorry in advance,

Davids last post should have been all this thread needed, but I'm just shallow enough to continue.

EK wrote:

"But the best script in the world is just a piece of paper, and it by no means guarantees a good film. The direction is more important than the writing, IMO."

and

"It's better to visualize the two as part of the same process, and shelving one to focus solely on the other is not as effective as considering both."

So which is it? 

My confusion stems from your waffling opinions. 

When you speak directkly about the importance of filmschool for screenwriters one would hope you would realize that maybe your unsupported and apparently uninformed opinions should be kept to yourself. But then again you can say "whatever comments I want in any thread I want" 

I just hope no one accidently takes you seriously.

Me and Kabuto-tronic should keep a running tally of who can shut the most threads down. I have a feeling this one is on its way.


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## Evan Kubota (Oct 13, 2006)

Waffling?

You can visualize the writing and the directing as part of the same process. Agreed?

If I had to pick one thing to be proficient at, I'd rather be great at directing than writing.

There's nothing contradictory about that...

No one 'speaks directly' on a message board. It's just opinion. Yours included.


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## titaniumdoughnut (Oct 13, 2006)

Thread locked, mainly because Kubota sunk to personal insults again, and also because this argument is retarded and David answered the OP.


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