# Second BA/Less Competitive MFA



## tony bowens (Jun 29, 2008)

Hi Everyone,

Looking for some advice.
I'm on the back end of a round of apps to the big name films schools NYU/USC/UCLA etc

It didn't go well. So now I'm wondering if maybe I should be trying to apply to places for a secondary BA rather than trying to make the leap to an MFA. Any advice?

If not that then what are other decent film programs that aren't so competitive?


----------



## Winterreverie (Jun 29, 2008)

Any ideas why you didn't get in? 

Maybe your best bet would be working on expanding your resume and strengthening your application materials including rewriting personal essays, refining writing samples or portfolio stuff, and getting stronger letters of recommendation and applying again next year.

Consider whether or not you'd be happy anywhere besides your top choices. If not, decide if you want to (and have the energy to) go through this process again next year. If not, getting real world experience on sets as a production assistant etc. may be a better route for you. 

I really don't endorse a second BA-- unless it is required for a professional program. It really doesn't do much to serve you professionally.

Hope this helps!


----------



## tony bowens (Jun 29, 2008)

I can guess at reasons but one never knows for sure I suppose.

NYU- wouldn't give me any feedback
Calarts - thought I'd be happier in a more traditional program
UCLA - Waitlisted but no feedback otherwise
USC - Wouldn't give specific feedback
SFState - waitlisted, never responded
Chapman - Still waiting but I didn't apply priority so doubtful

Letters of recommendation are a sticking point for me. Wrangling with former professors proved to be just as nerve wracking as my application materials, and what they had to say wasn't super positive. I'm at a loss on how to go about finding better ones.

Getting more experience is much the same as well. I work full time in a completely unrelated field, and don't have a lot of time or equipment to build out my portfolio further now that I'm several years out of school. 

I'd be happy with any place half decent that would take me so I can get back into practice. 

Rewriting things I plan on doing, but yeah the gaining more experience, and getting better recs  have me stumped.


----------



## Winterreverie (Jun 30, 2008)

First off, not all letters have to come from academics-- do you know anyone in the field willing to endorse you? There's also the potential of going to administration-- have a Dean write you a letter, usually theirs are more form letters unless they know you personally, but if you can't find strong letters, that may be an option. or-- and this is seedy, but-- find a professor that really liked you, offer to draft a first letter including points you want touched on, and have them rewrite it as they see fit. I spent a couple of years working in Academic affairs after undergrad so the latter is not unheard of, and additionally, I feel your pain being out of practice.

As for gaining experience, check craig's list for "gigs" in your area. 1 day shoots or weekend shoots you can crew on. It doesn't have to be insane or big budget, or really even film in most cases. A LOT of film school's are looking for students well rounded in the arts. Get out there and take pictures. There are ways around the no equipment conundrum.

Also check out:
LMU
UT
FSU
Columbia College
Columbia University

They aren't any less difficult to get in to, but casting a broader net may help.

Cheers!


----------



## FLFilmFan (Jun 30, 2008)

Hey Tony,

Yea, I am going to have to say going for another BA is the last thing you want.

Don't aim for half decent because that is what you are going to get.  Trust me, the big three schools is not going to make or break you as a filmmaker.

The fact that you are from an entirely different field has nothing to do with why you aren't being accepted.  Film schools actually give some preference to those without film backgrounds and if you make them feel as if you have some sort of potential they will accept you in a heartbeat.

Writing screenplays is free.  Don't worry about being replicas of great alumni, but approach topics like you have a passion for them.  Sci fi, kung fu, and action movies seem like b-rated territory, but if you come with the intensity that you are willing to make it successful will make you seem very serious.

going for an mfa is a lot more serious than going for a bfa.  so spend some time and try and build a portfolio whether it be in photography, short stories, short films, screenplays, audio tapes, whatever.  the medium of film can be brought up from so many mediums that you don't need to have fancy camera work and engaging visuals to see a filmmaker within you.  diablo cody was encouraged by a hollywood producer to write a screenplay based on her blog entries.

i dont think schools take their bfa candidates as seriously as they do an mfa candidate, so dont waste money and step back.  you can make so much more happen in the mfa track if you can get there.  dont settle for anything less than you deserve.

i am familiar to film school rejection and sometimes you asking yourself why you were rejected does more than what answers you were to get from the schools themself.  there is no way you can have a perfect application package, but communicate how serious you can be through your portfolio, grades and letters of recommendation, anything else, just pour it out in your personal essay.

in regards to finding good letters of recommendation, i think it is a necessity not only as an applicant but as an artist to surround yourself with good mentors.  find someone in the arts that you admire and have them watch and criticize your work.  these people will be your connections in the future.  when james mangold was in school at columbia, milos forman was what made film school great for him and later pushed him into fame.  these mentors don't necessarily have to come from the film backgrounds but hold some sort of artistic interest such as writers, musicians, experimental photographers, and whatnot.

i wish you all the luck, tony.

ps. i love the san fran area.  i spent my summers in martinez, ca and took the bart into the city all the time.  i eventually would like to live the rest of my life there if i can afford it.  i love the weather and the lifestyle.

best,

andy


----------



## Jayimess (Jun 30, 2008)

I completely agree with the advice to not pursue another Bachelor's degree.

Also, keep in mind that the same application that got rejected and/or waitlisted this year for MFAs would likely have garnered the same results for BFA programs.

Regarding your letters of recommendation, Winter's right.  Academic references, especially if their memories of you are vague or less than stellar, can hurt you far more than a glowing letter from, say, your longtime manager at Starbucks, who can state how well you work with others, or your former boss at the Burger Hut, who can talk about your strong work ethic and determination to rise through the company which was only thwarted by said company's bankruptcy.

I know I'm being goofy with the examples, but it's true!  The recommendations are supposed to paint a picture of how you appear to others, what personality traits shine through.

Don't give up.


----------



## tony bowens (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks everyone for all the great responses. Much appreciated. 
Now to dig into responses. 

Not all of my recs came from academics, but I feel like having none from academics could be problematic. It's mostly a question of access with them. You'd be amazed how much Stanford profs love to not respond to you.

My background isn't completely unrelated, as my BA was in Studio Art, it just didn't teach me a great deal and left me with $70k in debt to show for it.
My grades were okay but not amazing, just short of a 3.0 and my coursework was totally scattershot. Stanford was not the right school for me and it shows,  but there isn't much that can be done to bring my GPA up now.

I'm not much of a writer, which I've found to be a bit of a stumbling block in a process since I've been applying to cinematography programs. Given an idea to run with visually I have no problem spawning ideas but weaving sensical plots on paper isn't my strength. 

If I'd had good mentors I wouldn't be where I am now.  
I'm constantly figuring things out on my own and playing, but that's why I want to go to school to stop playing and start learning from people that actually have a clue. 


In any event I'm going to give it one more round and then just probably sell out and do whatever makes me the most money instead.


----------



## MrCashyCash (Aug 17, 2008)

I think you should give it another try. But this time, you need to GO ALL OUT.

- Get more experience. No excuses. Prove to yourself that you have a real world passion for cinematography. Do it on the weekends / evenings.

- Get better recommendations. Forget your art teachers. Take an evening class and ace it. Volunteer for some film shoots.

- Build a better portfolio. Dedicate yourself and do something that matters. You'll learn a lot in the process.

- Read "Breaking In" by Nicholas Jarecki.

- Be persistent with the admissions people. Ask them for feedback (as many times as necessary until they help). Ask for what you want.

- Have people read your personal statements. Get feedback. Rewrite. Rewrite. Rewrite.

- Apply to the right schools. Don't be blinded by ranking. Speak to other students.

- Plan your finances. Grad school is expensive.

I think if you're honest with yourself, you'll see that you could have done more to prepare for film school. Not just to gain admission, but to succeed in the industry.

Don't sweat the rejections - after all you've learned from the process... and once you do get in, it'll be worth it.

Commit one year to changing your life. Then do it.


----------



## tony bowens (Aug 17, 2008)

Hi MrCashyCash,
Just to get a baseline for where you're coming from could you tell me a bit more about your background?

Your advice has a pretty solid grounding and is a pretty good template for applying in general as it replicates most of what's come my way so far. 

That said, even the best laid plans often go astray. 
Do I think I personally could have turned in better apps last year? Not really. 

Do I think they were perfect by any stretch of the imagination? Not really.

But live and learn as they say.


----------



## MrCashyCash (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm also a Stanford grad. Right now, I have to decide whether to pursue a business venture I've been working on or follow an interest in Film. Risky either way.

All I'm saying is that if you really want this, you have to make it happen. You CAN do this.

Vinod Khosla (#1 venture capitalist) was rejected from Stanford Business school twice. The second time, he said "**** this" and called them every day until they changed their minds.

After Stanford, he sent out 300 resumes and was rejected 300 times. Ultimately, he was so determined that he didn't let it stop him.

Film is a business more than an art (at least Hollywood is) so you have to fight like hell.

Make it happen.


----------



## tony bowens (Aug 17, 2008)

Oh? What year? I was 03. 

Your story about Vinod reminds me of our graduation speaker. The then president of Peru. He had a story about how he was born in a shack with a dirt floor but through trying hard he managed to make it to Stanford.
Stories like that always leave me with larger blanks than they do inspiration.

How exactly does an incessant phone campaign make a major university amend it's admissions decisions? 
Something about that doesn't follow.
I don't know if it's intentional or not but they always seem to skip the part where they found a wedge that let them break out of the standard path. As much as I'm certain "try hard, then try harder" was central to it. It's not really an answer in and of itself. To me anyway. 

Personally I'm not at all concerned about "making it" in Hollywood, slugging it out for superiority against a bunch of people I know can play to the pulse of "everyman" better than I ever could. I'm far more interested in finding a time and space away from a job where I can hone my skills and enhance my abilities to create. If that results in something that can actually pay my bills that's nice but not the goal. I just want the image on the screen to match the image in my head. Currently it doesn't and other people seem to know more about than me so i'd hope standing near them a bit would rub off some.

Can you tell I was an art major?


----------



## MrCashyCash (Aug 17, 2008)

Econ '02

I'm not an expert on Film school admissions / life - But I've read enough / seen enough to know that rejection is just part of the game.


----------



## dharmagirl (Aug 18, 2008)

Have you considered taking some extension classes before applying again?  I was accepted to UCLA this year, and I think a lot of it was because of the work that I had done in screenwriting classes at NYU's Continuing Education Program.  I think it shows the school that you are serious about your education, and a new opportunity for a letter of rec, in addition to the opportunity to practice your craft.

It is probably easier for screenwriting, but those classes may be helpful to you as a director, or you may be able to find production classes.  Either way, it might give you a better letter of rec.  That is where I got one of mine.


----------



## tony bowens (Aug 18, 2008)

Definetly spent time looking for production classes and they were supposed to be part of my plan but there were a lot of monkey wrenches thrown into that. Much easier to do with writing. 

Current job keeps me at it or traveling to and from it between 8:30am-7:30pm. 
Few production classes start that late.
Most weekend things I've seen boil down to really pricey seminars that just cover the basics, which I'm already pretty familiar with.

Beyond that it's just been logistics.
Winter left me waiting to hear back, which would have made starting a production class a moot point. My interview with UCLA would have been on the first day of classes anyway. 

Summer there weren't any classes.
Fall is now but with a Nov 1st deadline for UCLA my concern is about spreading myself too thin even if I can find a class to fit my schedule. 

Work presents some opportunities, paying for clases that would otherwise cost $1500 in things like FCP and After effects but I've been waiting about a month and a half to get approved for that and they ahven't been able to give me an update. woo. 

Past that it's just been me doing some photography when I can grab a model or the weather is good.

Not sure how that's going to affect another round of apps, but I'm gonna find out.


----------



## Jayimess (Aug 18, 2008)

You sound like this unrelated job rules your life.

Those hours, the field, it's keeping you from what you want to do, blah blah blah, etc etc.

Find something that will give you time to do what you need to do, or make them give you time.

It's harsh, I suppose, but we can always find the excuses not to chase our dreams...'real life got in the way...'


----------



## dharmagirl (Aug 18, 2008)

Why would you spend 4 years on another BA or a less competitive MFA but not find the time to commit to a class here or there?  

You say that visually you are all set, so maybe you don't need production classes.  You say writing has always been a stumbling block so maybe that is exactly what you should focus on now.  As you said, it is easier to find a screenwriting class anyway.

I'm not saying it is the only answer, but it is something tangible to show your pursued commitment since your last aplication.


----------



## MrCashyCash (Aug 19, 2008)

Here goes:

UCLA Extension

"Fundamentals of Directing" (Online Class) 

September 27 - December 13 


- You actually create a scene. You write, film, direct, edit. 

- Not cheap but: you create original work, UCLA Extension brand name, recommendation letter, online class.

The investment in this could be priceless for your admissions chances.


----------

